Author Topic: Introduction and an update on Symbiostock (Read 28931 times)

Pilens · « **Reply #50 on:** May 03, 2015, 15:34 »

We don't know neither him nor his software (yet). Kind of hard to tell what there is to like or dislike...

What I do know is that while following this preliminary "show" here and over in the symbio forum my expectations and hopes have fallen to sub-sea-levels. There is still a good (?) chance of being pleasantly surprised, though. I'll keep lurking here...

klsbear · « **Reply #51 on:** May 03, 2015, 16:28 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 03, 2015, 14:58

Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works? If Leo transferred the intellectual properities to Robin, any future SW is his property, any other sw that was written and put into use still is open public source. And yes you can trademark a name that is unique, you cannot trademark a common word.

Don't like him or his software, don't use it, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to change.

If we didn't like the terms of his EULA which he seemed to say were retroactively applied to all earlier version of Symbiostock, then you had to stop using it so I would say that yes, he was forcing us to change, away from our legacy versions if you didn't agree with his new direction.

Of course this could all be a moot point. His site has been down for at least 36 hours now and he hasn't been active here or on any of his social media sites since late last week. Hard to guess if he's given it up already or just went underground until he actually had a product to show.

And as far as trademark goes, you can trademark a name if it's unique but I believe you need to apply in multiple jurisdictions if you're seeking international protection for your mark. Additionally, your application can be challenged if someone can show prior use. You can also be challenged after registration has been granted. I handle trademark registrations at my day job and last year we had one of our marks challenged by someone using it for a product that was different but within the same class number (trademarks are granted for use in the specific class(es) applied for as applicable to the product it is used for). Our attorneys advised that we accept the proposed solution of a contract that allowed joint use within the class for separate categories of sub-class as they said the other company's prior use would give them a strong case if they were to challenge us.

Jo Ann Snover · « **Reply #52 on:** May 03, 2015, 18:46 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 03, 2015, 14:58

Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works?

Robin doesn't have to do anything at all. He can just make a plugin and try and promote it via WordPress and ignore prior Symbiostock sites if that's what he wants.

When I buy software or install something free, I want to check on the track record of the entity providing the software. I use my computer for work and it wouldn't be around long if I just installed anything and everything that caught my eye.

That track record might be reviews for paid software or the number of downloads and any comments on WordPress that things do/don't work well.

Robin has no track record of any kind, wants to stay anonymous and doesn't wish to answer questions he feels display a lack of "humility" on our part.

Even if he had a rude forum post or two to contend with, he needs to be able to handle that calmly and not post rude and condescending locked statements directed at his would-be customers.

The fact that he was all upbeat initially and dissolved on contact with a few specific and direct questions does not send good vibes about installing what he's working on, IMO.

marthamarks · « **Reply #53 on:** May 03, 2015, 20:22 »

Quote from: Jo Ann Snover on May 03, 2015, 18:46

Even if he had a rude forum post or two to contend with, he needs to be able to handle that calmly and not post rude and condescending locked statements directed at his would-be customers.

The fact that he was all upbeat initially and dissolved on contact with a few specific and direct questions does not send good vibes about installing what he's working on, IMO.

Exactly.

As I recall, we first saw and heard from Robin when he popped up here introducing himself as Leo's spokesman in the forum. His behavior hasn't seemed very professional or spokesman-like since.

shotupdave · « **Reply #54 on:** May 04, 2015, 06:18 »

Quote from: klsbear on May 03, 2015, 16:28

Quote from: shotupdave on May 03, 2015, 14:58
Why does he have to introduce himself as long as the sw works? If Leo transferred the intellectual properities to Robin, any future SW is his property, any other sw that was written and put into use still is open public source. And yes you can trademark a name that is unique, you cannot trademark a common word.

Don't like him or his software, don't use it, plain and simple. No one is forcing you to change.

If we didn't like the terms of his EULA which he seemed to say were retroactively applied to all earlier version of Symbiostock, then you had to stop using it so I would say that yes, he was forcing us to change, away from our legacy versions if you didn't agree with his new direction.

Of course this could all be a moot point. His site has been down for at least 36 hours now and he hasn't been active here or on any of his social media sites since late last week. Hard to guess if he's given it up already or just went underground until he actually had a product to show.

And as far as trademark goes, you can trademark a name if it's unique but I believe you need to apply in multiple jurisdictions if you're seeking international protection for your mark. Additionally, your application can be challenged if someone can show prior use. You can also be challenged after registration has been granted. I handle trademark registrations at my day job and last year we had one of our marks challenged by someone using it for a product that was different but within the same class number (trademarks are granted for use in the specific class(es) applied for as applicable to the product it is used for). Our attorneys advised that we accept the proposed solution of a contract that allowed joint use within the class for separate categories of sub-class as they said the other company's prior use would give them a strong case if they were to challenge us.

First you do not have to register your trademark in multiple places. In fact people in other countries can registered their trademarks and copyrights here. And no you can not challenge it, you can use the older SW that has been released as open source. Case in point many of the Linux packages were one all free and open source, now many of them are only for purchase.

shotupdave · « **Reply #55 on:** May 04, 2015, 06:24 »

Quote from: cascoly on May 03, 2015, 13:05

Quote from: shotupdave on May 03, 2015, 05:33
Quote from: cascoly on April 30, 2015, 21:17
Quote from: klsbear on April 30, 2015, 18:47
Robin may or may not have filed an application for a trademark on the name but in the U.S. it takes about four to six months to go through the process before you are granted a registration number and there are opportunities to challenge it as well. I'm not familiar with international filing but presumably he would want to file in multiple countries since Symbiostock is in use internationally.

all true -- however here's what robin CLAIMS (from his trademark page when that section was still available online):

2. Intellectual Property Rights. The Programs and each of their components are owned by Symbiostock and are protected under copyright law and under other laws as applicable. Title to the Programs and any component, or to any copy, modification, or merged portion shall remain with Symbiostock, subject to the applicable license. The “Symbiostock” trademark and the “Hummingbird” logo are trademarks of Symbiostock.

when questioned whether he had actually registered the trademark, robin refused to answer, and no trademark has been registered in the US.

I was watching the conversation between you are Robin, and it was you that way over board on your comments. I was going to log on and tell you that you were way off base on your comments and your attitude. And your claim about him not registering it because you can not find it in the US copyright office. What if h registered in his home country. You are making claims and asking questions that really are none of your business. How about letting the man bring out the SW before the criticism starts. This is the same kind of attitude that drove away Leo.

hilarious! you say it's none of our business when somebody no one knows jumps in, refuses to identify himself, and then stakes a claim to the work that dozens of people have done over 2 years??? it's none of our business what the new software he's peddling is going to cost?? it's none of our business that the terms for hosting our software can be changed at any time???

and, it's a TRADEMARK not a copyright issue -- you can't copyright a name; true, the name be registered in another country - I never said otherwise - I only said it was NOT registered in the US and asked for clarification, since robin IS CLAIMING he has a registered trademark. only response is silence

Is he making you but it, no he is not, did he say you have to stop using the older sw, no. In fact he stated clearly, that you can run the older sw as long as you want to, but there is not going to be any upgrades by him. if you are a coder, you can modify as much as you want. You still have not given any logical rational reason, why you have such a bad attitude. And do you have any evidence from lets say Leo, that he did not hand over the whole concept, licence and rights to Robin. Or are you just pulling these complaints out of your backside. You come off as a little kid screaming that someone is trying to take your candy away. Unless you are paying for this, stop compaing and use the older sw or go to another platform.

r2d2 · « **Reply #56 on:** May 05, 2015, 02:33 »

Quote from: Robin@Symbiostock on March 23, 2015, 04:43

Symbiostock is a fantastic idea. When I first found out about it I was blown away that someone had already actuated an idea that was bubbling in my own mind. Why was I interested in it? The same reason as all of you - I am a contributor, and I want to be able to market my images on my terms. This is the primary drive behind both my and Leo's passions towards it.

Robin.

Hey Robin,

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.
2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.
It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

shotupdave · « **Reply #57 on:** May 05, 2015, 04:55 »

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?

It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.

You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

JPSDK · « **Reply #58 on:** May 05, 2015, 05:36 »

Oh no.
Robin and Leo.
What an amateurish attempt to beat a dead horse.
Have you not learned anything from the previous experience?

You need a board of directors.
You need a clear vision.
You need to describe a way to the goals of that vision, milestones and procedures.
You need clear terms people can agree on.
You need to guarantee peoples code and integrity.
You need to guarantee your own integrety.

A photographers network could be a powerfull player in the business, but only if its structure is cemented in concrete, and that is physical as well as mental. Rules and rules and rules again. And shoot the trespassers.

You have not solved any of the problems that lead to the death of Symbiostiock 1.1

Plus you have to add socialism, and that leaves out all the americans. "El pueblo unido jamais sera vencido".

r2d2 · « **Reply #59 on:** May 05, 2015, 05:53 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 05, 2015, 04:55

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?

It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.

You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

I have no problem with it if someone offers a service to Symbiostock and wants money for it. But Robin claimed in his EULA Symbiostock completely for itself. He wants to offer any service for Symbiostock he wants to be Symbiostock.
Symbiostock was always an open community.
And that is important because it can not be bought by the industry or any agency do close it. For me is therefore important that will clarify whether Symbiostock is a free term. But Robin does not comment on this.

And if I know who he is, I can better assess whether he is a contributor or just a businessman.

shotupdave · « **Reply #60 on:** May 05, 2015, 07:21 »

I have no problem with it if someone offers a service to Symbiostock and wants money for it. But Robin claimed in his EULA Symbiostock completely for itself. He wants to offer any service for Symbiostock he wants to be Symbiostock.

If Leo gave it to me him why can't he claim it.
Symbiostock was always an open community.

So was Linux but now many instances you have to pay for it. Do you think you have any right to get anything for free all of the time. And the only charge will be if you have a site hosted by him. So what is the problem?

And that is important because it can not be bought by the industry or any agency do close it. For me is therefore important that will clarify whether Symbiostock is a free term. But Robin does not comment on this.

He has made tat completely clear, it will be given away as a free plugin

And if I know who he is, I can better assess whether he is a contributor or just a businessman.

And if it he is just a businessman, are you not just a businessman offering a service too, or do you give all of your images away?

You still have not given any valid reason to know him.
[/quote]

cascoly · « **Reply #61 on:** May 05, 2015, 13:14 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 05, 2015, 04:55

....
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.

....

get your basic facts right ----

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock. Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times. Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

Lizard · « **Reply #62 on:** May 05, 2015, 16:07 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 05, 2015, 04:55

1. You killing the fantastic idea by not supporting any networking features.

He may add them in a later version, and you can still run the older version until he does.

2. You killing the spirit of Symbiostock (free speech and independence) by blocking, ignoring and censoring.

There is no such thing as free speech on a privately owned board. Your rights end when you sign on. He can control what is said and by whom. Can I go onto your site and say anything on your stock site?
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.
4. You are a contributor and want only to contribute to your terms?

It is his code and his plugin, and the plugin will work on any other independent site and their is no cost. The hoting is an option that can refuse to do, So why any complaint.
Funny no name/address can be found but the prices for Symbiostock plus are already online.

Can you give me a valid reason, why you require this information?

It may be that you are not a photographer/illustrator but your attention especially is on the monetization?

Funny, you want to use his software for the idea of profit but complain he wants to profit too. That by very definition is a hypocritical attitude.

You have not understood what constituted Symbistock it could have been a revolution! Now it's just your attempt to make quickly money.
Maybe you should better writing another book...

Your last comment is just an ad hominem fallacy, and shows a lack of character

Quote from: Leo Blanchette on May 28, 2013, 19:04

I'm actually pretty glad this has slowly grown. Not too many people at once...keeps my development controlled and not too overwhelming.

Also I'm quite thankful to those who help. Amazingly so.

Today I'm starting to realize that we're hitting a crucial point -

After I fix this last batch of bugs (the results of the last batch of improvements) its time to let it go and self-develop.

You've probably noticed I put a huge amount of "nature" references into this tool and endeavor. The idea of a self-prolific entity which is at first planted, then spreads on its own - whether it be your website, or this project. That was my goal since the beginning.

I've been very very much grateful for the recent contributions of some development-savvy people. They actually improved your SY experience tenfold and don't even seem to be asking for thanks. I'm hoping that people start adopting various parts of this project and start working together, and systematically working in improvements together. It seems to be happening naturally.

So here is where we are: After this last batch of "serious" bugs (the ones that get in the way of crucial functionality) I'm going to start letting this get adopted and refined by whoever wants to do it - on any level. ...and there should always be something in it for those who make the sacrifice. As for myself, I gave myself a certain amount of time to work with more-than-usual dedication, but my time is starting to run out, so this last batch of fixes which brings us to relative stability is where I will end my daily dedication to this.

This won't hurt anything - It will just leave a vacuum that needs to get filled, and will get filled with people who can use this and develop it to their and your (symbiotic) benefit.

Its been a fun ride! Its a sunny day today! Enjoyed a lot of it, but getting back to some remaining bugs soon.

So what Open Source means for Symbiostock - it means it can be whatever you want to make it from here.

shotupdave · « **Reply #63 on:** May 06, 2015, 14:11 »

Quote from: cascoly on May 05, 2015, 13:14

Quote from: shotupdave on May 05, 2015, 04:55

....
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.

....
get your basic facts right ----

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock. Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times. Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

Again you show nothing but ignorance, first you made the claim the robin did not register it, now you are saying leo did not. having a website with the name symbiostock has nothing to do with the product. we do not use common law in us federal laws. so agin you are wrong.

cascoly · « **Reply #64 on:** May 06, 2015, 19:01 »

Quote from: shotupdave on May 06, 2015, 14:11

Quote from: cascoly on May 05, 2015, 13:14
Quote from: shotupdave on May 05, 2015, 04:55

....
3. You killing Symbiostock by claiming Symbiostock is a trademark in your property.

That is is a claim that you have to prove. And if Leo gave him the rights to the name, it is his right to do so.

....

get your basic facts right ----

it's Robin who must prove his claim, since he makes it such a prominent part of his offerings --

Leo sold Robin the rights to the new version of symbiostock, but no rights to anything related to the original symbiostock

Leo COULD NOT have given robin the trademark robin claims, since Leo NEVER TRADEMARKED the word symbiostock. Leo SPECIFICALLY made symbiostock a brand that ANYONE could use, and said so EXPLICITLY in this and other forums, many times. Leo ENCOURAGED anyone interested to register domain names that included symbiostock, such as symbiostock.info and symbiostock-network.com -- that made symbiostock difficult if not impossible to ever trademark due to common law and prior usage

Again you show nothing but ignorance, first you made the claim the robin did not register it, now you are saying leo did not. having a website with the name symbiostock has nothing to do with the product. we do not use common law in us federal laws. so agin you are wrong.

what I said was correct:
Robin has not registered a trademark for symbiostock
Leo did not register a trademark EITHER

the US most definitely considers common law usage as part of trademark law - a simple google search turns up many sites top explain it for you
eg
http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/common.html

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Author Topic: Introduction and an update on Symbiostock (Read 28931 times)

Pilens

klsbear

Jo Ann Snover

marthamarks

shotupdave

shotupdave

r2d2

shotupdave

JPSDK

r2d2

shotupdave

cascoly

Lizard

shotupdave

cascoly

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