Author Topic: Shares Plummet (Read 38368 times)

Zero Talent · « **Reply #75 on:** August 11, 2015, 13:36 »

Quote from: VB inc on August 11, 2015, 12:51

...
This is the reason why I came to the conclusion that Jon Oringer does not care too much for creativity as he has none himself. If he did, he would value that asset.
...
! Now why do we as a society celebrate these big companies??? I for one don't think this is any good for the future human species as a whole. So i come to the conclusion it is WRONG and greed plays the main bad guy in it...

1. big companies make a much better use of the capital and resources than a mom and pop shop. This is what you should celebrate. It will take mom and pop months to polish a lens and assemble a camera. The price would be prohibitive for most of us. The competition forces big corporation like Canon, Nikon, etc to find ways to become more and more efficient, cut costs, innovate, and offer you the chance to be a photographer.

2. jobs are lost where efficiency is lost, but you forget to see that new jobs are created where it is more efficient to invest. You don't need an army of villagers to carry water every day from a well, when it is more efficient to build a pipe. Water carriers lose their jobs, but plumbers are in high demand. And regular villagers prosper when water runs in their village allowing them to evolve towards more productive jobs.

3. If Oringer doesn't value creativity, in a free market, there will always be a smarter competitor to realise the chance to value it, and Oringer will be penalised.
Kodak has not realised the value of the digital camera (despite pioneering it) and has been penalised. Are we worse off without Kodak? Not at all! On the contrary! Photography has been growing ever since.
Jobs have been lost in the film manufacturing industry, because of that lack of vision, indeed, but more jobs have been created in the digital photography business (microstock inclusive).

Ask yourself what has driven all this innovation, if not the pursuit of self interest, the self-interest of those innovative companies, their shareholders, and ultimately, the self-interest of regular consumers like you and me (looking for better products and lower prices)

Zero Talent · « **Reply #76 on:** August 11, 2015, 13:39 »

Quote from: VB inc on August 11, 2015, 13:01

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 11:32
...

On the other hand, that 2007-08 collapse happened because of too much government intervention in the free market.
Yet another good and noble intention (affordable housing) which ended up with disastrous consequences.
The government intervention made mortgage lending virtually risk free, messing up the free market. The banks reacted to that incentive, the same way normal people reacted to abnormally cheap mortgages.

Let the market decide the lending and borrowing risks, and you will never end up in such messy situations. The supply and demand tend to miraculously agree with each other.

A friend of mine was one of the managers at Freddy May a year or two the collapse and he got promoted to manager because he was really good at selling loans. This guy was a gangster i knew from my old hood with very thuggish mentality. He would tell me he would yell at his minions to close sales no matter what... He said it is sooo F***kn easy to close these things to grandmas and and the non speaking english as they were clueless to what they were getting themselves into. I remember thinking to myself... holy... this is some gangster stuff going on right here. Sounded like they were conning these people. One year later that whole thing collapsed.

That's exactly what I was talking about:

The Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (FHLMC), known as Freddie Mac, is a public government-sponsored enterprise] (GSE)

The Federal National Mortgage Association (FNMA), commonly known as Fannie Mae, was founded in 1938 during the Great Depression as part of the New Deal. It is a government-sponsored enterprise (GSE)

The government made mortgage lending a risk free joke.
These 2 politically driven monster institutions incentivised banks to lend left and right (protected by a governmental insurance) and borrowers to get unsustainable mortgages.

southpict · « **Reply #77 on:** August 11, 2015, 16:05 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 11:32

No, it is not. You can be caught and thrown in jail. It is in your interest not to be thrown in jail. It is in your interest to live in a safe community. It is in your interest to pay taxes and support a police force in the community.

...

Sorry but I can't agree with that . In an ideal world may be, but in the real world there is a variable named "corruption". Corruption is every where. Economy, finance and politics are intertwined and can do exactly what they want when they want. In jail , you will find mostly those who are not part of this system.
Sometimes a "fuse" is given to the media when the people need it and life goes on...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #78 on:** August 11, 2015, 17:01 »

Quote from: southpict on August 11, 2015, 16:05

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 11:32

No, it is not. You can be caught and thrown in jail. It is in your interest not to be thrown in jail. It is in your interest to live in a safe community. It is in your interest to pay taxes and support a police force in the community.

...

Sorry but I can't agree with that . In an ideal world may be, but in the real world there is a variable named "corruption". Corruption is every where. Economy, finance and politics are intertwined and can do exactly what they want when they want. In jail , you will find mostly those who are not part of this system.
Sometimes a "fuse" is given to the media when the people need it and life goes on...

You are right. If you dig deep enough, you will find that the common denominator between these corrupt intertwined politics and economics is a "big" government.

You can't be "corrupted" to sell what's yours, below the market price. But you can do it when you sell what's not yours.
Government bureaucrats have the power to distribute other people's money, and reward special interest groups with customized laws. This is exactly why corruption happens (not to mention economical disasters)

But as I said before, disasters often happen as a consequence of what initially appeared to be a good and noble intention promoted by idealists or, more frequently, by populist politicians with no interest in long term econmical effects (because of the short election cycles)

Restrict the government involvement in the economy, allow people the freedom to pursue their own interest in a free market society and corruption will dissappear.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #79 on:** August 11, 2015, 23:16 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 17:01

Restrict the government involvement in the economy, allow people the freedom to pursue their own interest in a free market society and corruption will dissappear.

Another huge load of nonsense. Yes, if there are no rules to break then there can be no corruption - by definition. But allowing people to do what they want with no regulations will only lead to disaster as we have seen many times in the past. Allowing people to pursue their self interest without government involvement gave us a Cuyahoga River that caught fire many times, the Love Canal disaster and is currently making the air in many parts of China unsafe to breathe. You can't call it corruption if there are no rules to break but it is a disaster either way.

You are right that the financial crisis of 2008 was caused in part by well-meaning policies of the Clinton administration to lower lending standards as a way of increasing the rate of home ownership. However, it was much more complex than that and included allowing too many mergers creating the whole "too big to fail" situation and eliminating the barriers between lending and investment banking. Just before the crash we had six years where Republicans controlled the house, senate and presidency and reduced or eliminated many regulations on all kinds of businesses. The crash was caused exactly by allowing people to pursue their own self interest without government intervention. The lessons learned from the Depression served us well for 60 years and it was only when we forgot that and let businesses do what they want that we had another major problem.

I agree with you that allowing people to pursue their own self interest is essential and is the main driver of a successful economy. However, it has to be properly regulated to make sure that your pursuing your own interest doesn't interfere with others pursuing theirs, and to prevent too few people controlling all of the wealth so that nobody else can advance.

Now my cats are pursuing their own self interest and telling me that I need to feed them so I'd better stop.

etudiante_rapide · « **Reply #80 on:** August 11, 2015, 23:32 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 10:57

Quote from: etudiante_rapide on August 11, 2015, 10:26
Quote from: Zero Talent on August 11, 2015, 09:58
That "greed" nonsense has nothing to do with it.

that greed (no inverted commas) is everything to do with it. only those who are clueless will call it nonsense

Endlessly repeating this leftist slogan will not make it true.

The freedom to pursue the self interest in a free market is the only mechanism that has ever provided a better life to the masses. Failure to understand this mechanism led only to disastrous experiments and widespread poverty.

Calling the fuel of all progress made by mankind "greed" proves either hypocrisy or true cluelessness.

Your naivete is touching, indeed

really, naivete???
your being so verbose is rather amusing to me too

PixelBytes · « **Reply #81 on:** August 12, 2015, 12:36 »

Zero Talent = Trump voter?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #82 on:** August 12, 2015, 12:56 »

Quote from: PixelBytes on August 12, 2015, 12:36

Zero Talent = Trump voter?

Lol, that clown? Not in a million years!
Belive it or not, I would rather vote Democrat, in abscence of a 3rd way

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Rinderart · « **Reply #83 on:** August 12, 2015, 13:29 »

I hope he gets nominated and separates the Pubs, Then Hillary will win hands down. LOL I wouldn't be surprised if she put him up to it. Perfect Move.lol.

back to topic. shares Plummet.

ferdinand · « **Reply #84 on:** August 13, 2015, 02:58 »

... there is a big difference between self interest and greed - greed is a sickness, and self interest is a normal thing - when the whole world becomes your self interest, and nothing else - then you become greedy, it is not enough to have 10.000.000 $ you have to have 10000000000000000000000000000...$ - not because you need it - but because you are ... sick...

..today's capitalist world is a world without a shred of humanity - we will have in the future a lot of violence... and revolutions...

Nikovsk · « **Reply #85 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:42 »

All the mainstream media hates Trump so bad, he must be doing something right.

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #86 on:** August 13, 2015, 08:39 »

Quote from: Rinderart on August 12, 2015, 13:29

I hope he gets nominated and separates the Pubs, Then Hillary will win hands down. LOL I wouldn't be surprised if she put him up to it. Perfect Move.lol.

back to topic. shares Plummet.

Trump definitely makes things interesting. It's possible he actually thinks he has a chance of winning, or maybe it's all just for publicity and a way to feed his evidently limitless ego. He has said he likes Hillary and that the economy does much better under Democrats so maybe part of his goal is to try to make sure Hillary can win - assuming she gets the nomination instead of Bernie Sanders. The fact that so many Republicans in Iowa seriously support Trump is shocking - I assume it indicates a backlash against the ruling families and I'm all for that, just wish there was a realistic candidate. If we end up with Bernie running against Donald that would certainly say that the People are tired of politics as usual.

SSTK at just under $33 this morning. With a P/E over 56 it still seems a bit overpriced to me but getting close. Wish I had bought some at the beginning and sold at the peak. I would definitely buy Canva now if they were public - they still seem to be on the upswing.

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #87 on:** August 13, 2015, 08:59 »

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 02:58

..today's capitalist world is a world without a shred of humanity - we will have in the future a lot of violence... and revolutions...

I wouldn't go quite that far - there are still many people trying to make a positive difference and capitalist economies are the best we have. Thousands of people are dying every year trying to migrate to capitalist countries where they will have a chance at improving their lives.

Unfortunately, violence and revolution seem to be a part of human nature - we have had those in abundance for the past 6000 years of recorded history and presumably long before that. With constantly increasing populations conflict is inevitable regardless of the political system. However, I agree that the system nowadays in the US at least is tilted far too much towards the wealthy. If something doesn't change we will end up with a two-tiered society of owners versus renters - maybe we are there already. Hopefully it won't take a violent revolution to fix it.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #88 on:** August 13, 2015, 10:18 »

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 02:58

... there is a big difference between self interest and greed - greed is a sickness, and self interest is a normal thing - when the whole world becomes your self interest, and nothing else - then you become greedy, it is not enough to have 10.000.000 $ you have to have 10000000000000000000000000000...$ - not because you need it - but because you are ... sick...

..today's capitalist world is a world without a shred of humanity - we will have in the future a lot of violence... and revolutions...

"Greed" is not a sickness, but one of the "7 deadly sins". Religion is the source of the negative connotation. And as the Bible says: "let him who is without sin cast the first stone".
I dare you to cast that stone!

Instead, you better acknowledge reality, and try to work out the best system possible, in a world which will always be full of imperfections.
You can continue to call it "greed" if you want, but I dare you to draw the line between the "normal thing" and "greed", as you see it. What is "normal thing" for you will definitely be labeled as "greed", by millions of people in this world! Or by those who lived 100 years ago. Even by some medieval kings.

I also dare you to describe the alternative system which will only yield the beautiful results you are dreaming of.
Would it be communism again, where bureaucrats attempt to control everything, while claiming that they know better than you, what is good for you?
Would it be a system where an "illuminated" dictator knows better than you, what is good for you?
Would it be a system where an "intellectual elite" knows better than you, what's good for you?
I can only warn you that all the do-gooders mentioned above will definitely pursue their self interest, not yours.

Please describe your "Brave New World"!

About revolutions, you know what? You might be right, but if you are, it will be for totally different reasons that the ones you think of.
Revolutions start when governments take freedom away from people, and subsequent failed governmental policies lead to poverty and generalized corruption.

I know you will not agree with me, but free trade, free market and the freedom to pursue the self-interest, of an individual, family or community is exactly what brings you, as close as possible, to the "heaven" "Imagine-d" by John Lennon (I'm sure you would agree with). But pay attention: without ever creating heaven on earth.

Free trade, free market and freedom to pursue self interest, "magically" brings together people from different countries, different religions, different races, different cultures, who might easily hate each other, under a different social system. An "invisible hand" drives those people to work in harmony (even without knowing it) in a free trade, free market society, and achieve a better life for each one of them.

Nobody tells it better than this economist in this simple "Lesson of the Pencil".
I would strongly encourage you to watch this 10 minutes clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ERbC7JyCfU

ferdinand · « **Reply #89 on:** August 13, 2015, 11:27 »

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on August 13, 2015, 08:59

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 02:58
..today's capitalist world is a world without a shred of humanity - we will have in the future a lot of violence... and revolutions...

I wouldn't go quite that far - there are still many people trying to make a positive difference and capitalist economies are the best we have. Thousands of people are dying every year trying to migrate to capitalist countries where they will have a chance at improving their lives.

..these people that try to migrate to capitalist countries - like Syrians today - are forced by pure capitalism, war is one of the main tools of capitalism, everything is much more linked than it looks on the surface...

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

PixelBytes · « **Reply #90 on:** August 13, 2015, 20:32 »

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 11:27

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

A guillotine in the middle of Wall Street? Not the worst idea ever....

- so no one thinks I am a anarchist.

ferdinand · « **Reply #91 on:** August 14, 2015, 00:30 »

Quote from: PixelBytes on August 13, 2015, 20:32

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 11:27

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

A guillotine in the middle of Wall Street? Not the worst idea ever....

.. hm - it would never occur to me - interesting idea... where are you from?

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #92 on:** August 14, 2015, 08:40 »

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 11:27

..these people that try to migrate to capitalist countries - like Syrians today - are forced by pure capitalism, war is one of the main tools of capitalism, everything is much more linked than it looks on the surface...

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

That is nonsense - capitalism has nothing to do with wars. Certainly some capitalists have benefitted greatly from wars but most would say that war is bad for business and therefore against their self interest (getting back to the theme Zero Talent likes to bring up).

In Syria the problems are caused by the dictator Assad and ISIS. Do you think ISIS is setting up a capitalist society? Certainly not!

Religion is the biggest cause of wars, not capitalism. If we could get rid of religion then we could reduce differences between societies and the cause for many wars would go away immediately. Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #93 on:** August 14, 2015, 10:06 »

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on August 14, 2015, 08:40

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 11:27
..these people that try to migrate to capitalist countries - like Syrians today - are forced by pure capitalism, war is one of the main tools of capitalism, everything is much more linked than it looks on the surface...

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

That is nonsense - capitalism has nothing to do with wars. Certainly some capitalists have benefitted greatly from wars but most would say that war is bad for business and therefore against their self interest (getting back to the theme Zero Talent likes to bring up).

In Syria the problems are caused by the dictator Assad and ISIS. Do you think ISIS is setting up a capitalist society? Certainly not!

Religion is the biggest cause of wars, not capitalism. If we could get rid of religion then we could reduce differences between societies and the cause for many wars would go away immediately. Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon.

Wars are always triggered by authoritarian states. By "big" governments stimulating and exacerbating patriotic feelings, by promoting a nationalistic/religious supremacy, by inventing external threats, by blaming "others" for their own failures.

They use this excuse to reduce civil liberties, to justify the creation of a police state and to strengthen their grip on society.

It is the government protecting its self-interest at its best (while preventing its "subjects" to do it)!

And this has nothing to do with the true free market capitalism, free trade and liberty.
A lot of people, even in this forum, associate the true free market capitalism with US. They are wrong: US is an authoritarian state.

Ferdinand you are unhappy and I understand you. You want revolution. Fine. But you have no idea what to put in place if you succeed. You might only replace your leaders without changing the system (you can even become one of them), or worse: you can easily drive the society in the wrong direction (towards communism, hence even more authoritarianism).

PixelBytes jokes about guillotines on Wall Street, suggesting that Wall Street bears the blame. Wrong!
The root cause is Washington DC and their on-going policy to subsidize Wall Street with our money, by not allowing banks to fail, by "printing" money to keep the stock market artificially up and create an illusion of prosperity.

Wall Street is only reacting to these perverse risk-free incentives, the same way anyone would react to a "free lunch".

The problem is elsewhere.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #94 on:** August 14, 2015, 11:08 »

Most off topic discussion ever?!

cathyslife · « **Reply #95 on:** August 14, 2015, 11:21 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on August 14, 2015, 11:08

Most off topic discussion ever?!

Clearly.

VB inc · « **Reply #96 on:** August 14, 2015, 13:28 »

Not sure how politics got into this thread... I have zero idea how that happened.

Funny how big government is always blamed by the right wing. It seems to me that government (at least in the US) is closely tied with big corporate interest as it is usually a revolving door between them. You leave office and you get a corporate job you just passed a bill to give yourself a raise because it is in your self interest and not greed...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #97 on:** August 14, 2015, 14:12 »

Quote from: VB inc on August 14, 2015, 13:28

Not sure how politics got into this thread... I have zero idea how that happened.
Funny how big government is always blamed by the right wing. It seems to me that government (at least in the US) is closely tied with big corporate interest as it is usually a revolving door between them. You leave office and you get a corporate job you just passed a bill to give yourself a raise because it is in your self interest and not greed...

Funny you say that! I blame the "big" government, indeed, but I'm definitely not "right wing".
As I said before, in the absence of a 3rd way, I would rather vote democrat. I believe that, these days, the biggest threat to liberty comes from the neo-cons.

And you are straight to the point. A government bureaucrat is never that do-gooder you think you voted for.

He is and he will always protect his self-interest, before anything else.

This is why the solution can only be to restrict the government interference in the economy, in order to make illegal such corrupt favors, given to special interest groups, all of them based on your money.
I'm no anarchist, either. The government must have an important role, but not in economical matters.

ferdinand · « **Reply #98 on:** August 14, 2015, 15:07 »

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on August 14, 2015, 08:40

Quote from: ferdinand on August 13, 2015, 11:27
..these people that try to migrate to capitalist countries - like Syrians today - are forced by pure capitalism, war is one of the main tools of capitalism, everything is much more linked than it looks on the surface...

...we will have revolutions for sure - what kind and what will be the next "solution" - I don t know...

That is nonsense - capitalism has nothing to do with wars. Certainly some capitalists have benefitted greatly from wars but most would say that war is bad for business and therefore against their self interest (getting back to the theme Zero Talent likes to bring up).

In Syria the problems are caused by the dictator Assad and ISIS. Do you think ISIS is setting up a capitalist society? Certainly not!

Religion is the biggest cause of wars, not capitalism. If we could get rid of religion then we could reduce differences between societies and the cause for many wars would go away immediately. Unfortunately I don't see that happening any time soon.

...unbelievably naive - war in Syria has been caused by USofA,............. same in Ukraine, Libya, Iraq, Vietnam...etc. etc.

Rinderart · « **Reply #99 on:** August 14, 2015, 19:10 »

Well, there goes this thread. Politics and religion strikes again. those 2 subjects will Kill any good discussion.

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Author Topic: Shares Plummet (Read 38368 times)

Zero Talent

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southpict

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etudiante_rapide

PixelBytes

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Rinderart

ferdinand

Nikovsk

sgoodwin4813

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Zero Talent

ferdinand

PixelBytes

ferdinand

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Zero Talent

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VB inc

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