Author Topic: What do you think? (Read 67580 times)

jorgeinthewater · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:13 »

Quote from: harry on March 17, 2008, 04:53

Quote from: nruboc on March 16, 2008, 13:46

I thought this was a Microstock board, not a place for people to spew their hatred of the USA.

"spewing hatred" is perfectly understandable considering the situation. It's incredible the suffering of the Iraqi people now as a result of America's moronic foreign policy- just as it was incredible the suffering of the Vietnamese people. Just saying "communism" is a completely moronic justification, by the way jorgeinthewater. I think justifying Iraq by saying "Sadam lunatic" is also pretty lame, when you consider all the vaste array of lunatics that America supports when it's convenient to do so. But those who supported the war dont know much about that do they? To them, Saddam= hitler=bad, black and white, us vs them, all very simple, god is on our side, we ll win because we are good and they are evil. Very, very moronic. A country of overweight armchair imperialists that know absolutely NOTHING about the outside would should stick to their tv and donuts.

So much hate for a country that most of the time is just trying to help others. Every time there is a major natural disaster there goes the US with aid. Every time someone is beating up their next door neighbor there goes the US placing its finest young men in harms way.
The most moronic thing about all of your statements is not the words but the spirit of hatred that is making you write them.
For you info you uneducated person the US is made of 99% immigrants that came from all over the world looking for a better life, not trying to join an empire that wants to conquer the world. I'm one of them and I came from a communist dictatorship. But to go back and forth with you is truly not worth it because there is just too much hate in your heart for others.
PS don't have a TV hadn't had one for 13 years and the only donuts I like are Thai donuts with the condensed milk on top.
Peace to all except to you Harry you need love in your heart for others first.

harry · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:22 »

Quote from: leszek on March 17, 2008, 07:09

Harry - you need a reality check. Seriously.
As I said before - forming opinions on the basis of leftist propaganda is, well, naive and uninformed.
I am not pro-war. But the world we live in is not ideal, and crap happens.
It is the long-term results and effects that count. The very fact that you can express those opinions of yours is a proof that the system you are bashing actually works (again - it is not ideal, but nothing better has been invented so far).

Regarding "Oh what a cliche! As you well know, they wouldnt be killing each other like this if it wasnt for the war.":
BS, pure and simple. Please learn something about Middle East and its history for the last 1400 years - and maybe you arrive at different conclusion.
You are a target - whether you want it or not - by the very fact of who you are, what you believe in, and what passport you carry.
There are good and bad people everywhere: what is important - is the proportions of each and the influence they carry.

And now - seriously again - back to photography.

There is no "leftist propaganda" here! Im actually rather right wing. If you knew the first thing about middle eastern history or culture, you wouldnt have backed the war in the first place. Let's take a look at what happened shall we?
An islamist (previously funded by America) bombs the twin towers. America rightly invades Afghanistan to capture him and remove that source of extremism. But that isnt enough. So what do they do? They bomb the most secular country in the middle east. Not only is it the most secular (or at least one of the most secular) but it's also the most fragile, and the one most likely to collapse into small pieces, and also the one most likely to become an Iranian proxy. Oh very smart.
They also make a mess ("crap happens" you say- nicely put) and because of the power vacuum, extremists become very powerful. You think that they wouldnt be killing each other like this if Americans hadnt made such a mess? How did you figure that out?! Maybe if you had studied a little about the middle east BEFORE invading, you wouldnt have gone in.

null · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:44 »

Quote from: harry on March 17, 2008, 07:22

Maybe if you had studied a little about the middle east BEFORE invading, you wouldnt have gone in.

Gulf II was a bad mistake. The WMDs were a hoax, like the Gulf of Tonkin. Cheney and his gang wanted the oil. George WB shouldn't have been re-elected after the WMD lies. He was. It will be corrected 4 years later, that's the good news.

leszek · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2008, 07:49 »

Not being American - the only thing I can blame America for is being at times naive, self-centered and heavy-handed. Not the biggest of sins, from my perspective.
At least there is a Bill of Rights and a Constitution, which can't be said about many countries - and that includes some you are so valiantly defending. Sure - it does not always work - but it is up to the people to make this happen. Far from being naive regarding the democracy - it works for most people.
Well, I know which side I am on, at any case. And I have no ilusions about what works and what doesn't. I had the opportunity to spend some time in US, Canada, Western Europe, Australia - and in some other places. For me - the conclusions are obvious and self-evident.
You - on the other hand, still need to learn a thing or two about the world you live in. Or at least you give that impression.

Now - for me at least - the discussion is over. It was not my intension to get dragged into a political debate. I am mostly interested in photography anyway.

epixx · « **Reply #29 on:** March 17, 2008, 13:50 »

Here's something for us naives:

- At the moment, 2.2 million Iraqis live in refugee camps within Iraq, while another 2 million live as refugees in Jordan and Syria. They get little or no economic support from USA or others. (These numbers are approaching 20% of the total population of Iraq.)

- Hundreds of civilians are killed every month, by extremists, Iraqi military and police, by the Americans and by mercenaries working for the Americans.

- As a result of the increased influence by Muslim extremists in the country, many of them loyal to Iran and their religious system, a sinking number of women are working or taking higher education. Women have lost most of the rights that they had under Saddam Hussein. (Wow Mr. Bush, how did you manage to do that? Wasn't this what you were supposed to fight against?)

- 70% of the population do not have access to clean drinking water.

- 43% of the population have to live on less than $1 per day. This is one of the oil-richest countries in the world.

And it's getting worse day by day.

Somebody further up this thread called the Americans naive. I'm sorry to say, that's way off the target. Stupidity, yes, greed, yes, but Mr. Bush and his comrades are not naive. They went into this with open eyes, they lied knowingly to the American people and to the United Nations, and they did not care how many lives, Iraqi or American, would be lost as a result of their actions.

Those who defend those actions on the other hand, can undoubtedly label themselves naive, if they so wish. Good luck to you all.

vonkara · « **Reply #30 on:** March 17, 2008, 15:11 »

Well say everybody, but let them live in their own country like they want. I think that they all know what most of the population think about them, if not they will know it a day for sure. What we can do it's making our own countries better while some Americans try to resolve the problems that we can't.

madelaide · « **Reply #31 on:** March 17, 2008, 18:29 »

Quote from: leszek on March 17, 2008, 05:35

I am - an believe me, while USA and the president do a lot of things which are simple, crude, or outright stupid at times - it does not come even close to the true evil of communism.

Cruelty is not a prerrogative of communism, but of dictatorship. The dictatorships we had in Latin America for decades - from Argentina to Mexico - were all cruel. People would simply disappear in the hands of the militaries for the mere suspition of being a "communist". Everyone who was against the regime was a "communist" for that matter, and that was a reason to justify all types of torture.

I am not against USA, I'm against any interventionist country, and USA has been the major one lately.

Regards,
Adelaide

sharply_done · « **Reply #32 on:** March 17, 2008, 18:38 »

Quote from: Vonkara on March 17, 2008, 15:11

Well say everybody, but let them live in their own country like they want. I think that they all know what most of the population think about them, if not they will know it a day for sure. ...

I used to live in the USA - now I live in Canada, and am glad I moved. Although it's not a perfect place by any measure, I'm much happier to be here than I was to be there.

leszek · « **Reply #33 on:** March 17, 2008, 18:38 »

"Cruelty is not a prerrogative of communism, but of dictatorship."

But of course. The difference is the scale of events. About 60 million people died in Soviet Union alone during the communist experiment. Maybe this will put things in perspective...

nruboc · « **Reply #34 on:** March 17, 2008, 18:48 »

Quote from: sharply_done on March 17, 2008, 18:38

Quote from: Vonkara on March 17, 2008, 15:11
Well say everybody, but let them live in their own country like they want. I think that they all know what most of the population think about them, if not they will know it a day for sure. ...
I used to live in the USA - now I live in Canada, and am glad I moved. Although it's not a perfect place by any measure, I'm much happier to be here than I was to be there.

Good for you, I couldn't care less.

nruboc · « **Reply #35 on:** March 17, 2008, 19:12 »

Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29

Quote from: leszek on March 17, 2008, 05:35
I am - an believe me, while USA and the president do a lot of things which are simple, crude, or outright stupid at times - it does not come even close to the true evil of communism.

Cruelty is not a prerrogative of communism, but of dictatorship. The dictatorships we had in Latin America for decades - from Argentina to Mexico - were all cruel. People would simply disappear in the hands of the militaries for the mere suspition of being a "communist". Everyone who was against the regime was a "communist" for that matter, and that was a reason to justify all types of torture.

I am not against USA, I'm against any interventionist country, and USA has been the major one lately.

Regards,
Adelaide

I love how all the anti-interventionist people are always the ones in places where there is no genocide or other mass killings going on. I rather hear their opinion, but they're not safe sitting in their home typing on the internet.

Lizard · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2008, 19:26 »

Well , the main reason for attacking Iraq was , not Sadam and his government but their possession of biological weapons , so they were huge treat for the world.

Just wondering where are those "weapons" now , and why nobody speaks of that anymore ?

Bin Laden , the man who was terrorist #1 in the world was educated and trained at St. Andrews , by the US Army , with full support of someones dad.
So If that someone wants to destroy a terrorist training camp isn't the first thing is to do to put a chain in his backyard.

Peace

Lizard · « **Reply #37 on:** March 17, 2008, 19:35 »

Quote from: nruboc on March 17, 2008, 19:12

Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29
Quote from: leszek on March 17, 2008, 05:35
I am - an believe me, while USA and the president do a lot of things which are simple, crude, or outright stupid at times - it does not come even close to the true evil of communism.

Cruelty is not a prerrogative of communism, but of dictatorship. The dictatorships we had in Latin America for decades - from Argentina to Mexico - were all cruel. People would simply disappear in the hands of the militaries for the mere suspition of being a "communist". Everyone who was against the regime was a "communist" for that matter, and that was a reason to justify all types of torture.

I am not against USA, I'm against any interventionist country, and USA has been the major one lately.

Regards,
Adelaide

I love how all the anti-interventionist people are always the ones in places where there is no genocide or other mass killings going on. I rather hear their opinion, but they're not safe sitting in their home typing on the internet.

Well I was in war , the biggest genocides in Europe after WW2 were happening in my country ,we were fighting against dictators army and regime , we had US officially on our side , and I lived things you wont ever see on your TV.

So I guess I may speak as anti-interventionist ?

null · « **Reply #38 on:** March 17, 2008, 19:48 »

Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29

I'm against any interventionist country

Go and tell that to the West Europeans and the largest part of Southeast Asia. What a blessing it should have been to live under the Japanese Emperor and under the heirs of Hitler and Stalin. Reality check.

vphoto · « **Reply #39 on:** March 17, 2008, 20:32 »

Quote from: FlemishDreams on March 17, 2008, 19:48

Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29
I'm against any interventionist country

Go and tell that to the West Europeans and the largest part of Southeast Asia. What a blessing it should have been to live under the Japanese Emperor and under the heirs of Hitler and Stalin. Reality check.

Japanese Emperor, Hitler and Stalin were long time ago. Now google is more powerful than
Japanese Emperor ever was, yourtube will make naked any new Hitler or Stalin in just a week.
human stupidity is here to stay though, so wars will spark here and there, but they will not be
as glorious as before. And finally, I trust Adelaide much more than Bush

nruboc · « **Reply #40 on:** March 17, 2008, 21:55 »

Quote from: Lizard on March 17, 2008, 19:35

Quote from: nruboc on March 17, 2008, 19:12
Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29
Quote from: leszek on March 17, 2008, 05:35
I am - an believe me, while USA and the president do a lot of things which are simple, crude, or outright stupid at times - it does not come even close to the true evil of communism.

Cruelty is not a prerrogative of communism, but of dictatorship. The dictatorships we had in Latin America for decades - from Argentina to Mexico - were all cruel. People would simply disappear in the hands of the militaries for the mere suspition of being a "communist". Everyone who was against the regime was a "communist" for that matter, and that was a reason to justify all types of torture.

I am not against USA, I'm against any interventionist country, and USA has been the major one lately.

Regards,
Adelaide

I love how all the anti-interventionist people are always the ones in places where there is no genocide or other mass killings going on. I rather hear their opinion, but they're not safe sitting in their home typing on the internet.

Well I was in war , the biggest genocides in Europe after WW2 were happening in my country ,we were fighting against dictators army and regime , we had US officially on our side , and I lived things you wont ever see on your TV.

So I guess I may speak as anti-interventionist ?

I could careless who speaks as an anti-interventionist, it's your freedom of speech to say whatever you please. But your words are wasted on me, rather I would like to hear how you would explain your anti-interventionist views to the women who are being raped, tortured, and murdered in Darfur. Go ahead make your argument to them. Your words ring hallow here keyboard warrior.

Lizard · « **Reply #41 on:** March 18, 2008, 05:37 »

You had KKK doing the same thing , or even worse , not so long ago , so did you also needed an invasion ?

What about Guantanamo ? Rapes ? Torture ? No trials, no lawyers .....

And at the same time , blackmailing newer countries that if they want to join NATO the have to sign that the will not prosecute any American solder in their country nor to deliver him to international court in Haag no matter what he does , but to deliver him strait to the US justice.

I know I know , you couldn't care less.

sharply_done · « **Reply #42 on:** March 18, 2008, 10:52 »

Quote from: nruboc on March 17, 2008, 21:55

... Your words ring hallow here keyboard warrior.

I know it's a typo, but I got a big kick out of hallow.

madelaide · « **Reply #43 on:** March 18, 2008, 19:09 »

Quote from: FlemishDreams on March 17, 2008, 19:48

Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29
I'm against any interventionist country

Go and tell that to the West Europeans and the largest part of Southeast Asia. What a blessing it should have been to live under the Japanese Emperor and under the heirs of Hitler and Stalin. Reality check.

Hmm. I believe Germany invaded Western and Eastern Europe countries, as Japan invaded Southeast Asia. So the USA "helping" Europe in WWII is not the same thing as invading Iraq. And quite frankly, if Hitler had set his foot in Poland only, or maybe on a couple of other countries, nobody would have moved a finger.

And in many occasions USA interfered with other countries' internal matters just for their own benefit/interests (like here in Brazil). So did UK and other colonialist countries in their former colonies. That might be acceptable in civil war, such as the Darfur case cited here, for humanitarian causes.

But I think nobody is innocent here to believe USA and its allies invaded Iraq for humanitarian causes, to free its people from Saddam (hey, wasn't he a good guy 10 years before?). This war was for economical (oil, war industry) and political (presence in Middle East) reasons, using as an excuse the emotions of the USA population after the infamous terrorist attacks. While people were still mourning their deads, while the population (and the world) was still shocked with such actions, economic forces began taking advantage of this. War is a very lucrative business to some.

Regards,
Adelaide

leszek · « **Reply #44 on:** March 18, 2008, 20:06 »

Well, Madelaide, when reverting to history - let's put things in real context.

"And quite frankly, if Hitler had set his foot in Poland only, or maybe on a couple of other countries, nobody would have moved a finger."

Correct - nobody did. Neither France nor UK, with whom Poland had a military pact at that time. Well, their turn came next - and quickly at that.
Nobody did a thing when Czech Republic was attacked, or Austria...which only shows you the value of military pacts

And then - in Tehran (1943), Yalta and Potsdam (1945) - these countries (and some more) have been promptly sold to Stalin.

And...and...

nruboc · « **Reply #45 on:** March 18, 2008, 23:09 »

Quote from: Lizard on March 18, 2008, 05:37

You had KKK doing the same thing , or even worse , not so long ago , so did you also needed an invasion ?

What about Guantanamo ? Rapes ? Torture ? No trials, no lawyers .....

And at the same time , blackmailing newer countries that if they want to join NATO the have to sign that the will not prosecute any American solder in their country nor to deliver him to international court in Haag no matter what he does , but to deliver him strait to the US justice.

I know I know , you couldn't care less.

You still haven't made your argument for anti-interventionism to the women of Darfur... c'mon we know you can do it..... Yeah, as long as it's not YOUR children, wife getting raped and murdered your ok with it. I did get get a chuckle how you seem to equate those women to the terrorists in Guantanimo. I only wish the US govenrment would release all of Guantanimo in your neighborhood and see if you come back making your same arguments.

As a supposed soldier, you should know you don't release the enemy back onto the battefield when you're still fighting them, unless you're confident they won't take back to fighting. As I suspected, you're a keyboard warrior.

nruboc · « **Reply #46 on:** March 18, 2008, 23:24 »

Quote from: madelaide on March 18, 2008, 19:09

Quote from: FlemishDreams on March 17, 2008, 19:48
Quote from: madelaide on March 17, 2008, 18:29
I'm against any interventionist country

Go and tell that to the West Europeans and the largest part of Southeast Asia. What a blessing it should have been to live under the Japanese Emperor and under the heirs of Hitler and Stalin. Reality check.

Hmm. I believe Germany invaded Western and Eastern Europe countries, as Japan invaded Southeast Asia. So the USA "helping" Europe in WWII is not the same thing as invading Iraq. And quite frankly, if Hitler had set his foot in Poland only, or maybe on a couple of other countries, nobody would have moved a finger.

And in many occasions USA interfered with other countries' internal matters just for their own benefit/interests (like here in Brazil). So did UK and other colonialist countries in their former colonies. That might be acceptable in civil war, such as the Darfur case cited here, for humanitarian causes.

But I think nobody is innocent here to believe USA and its allies invaded Iraq for humanitarian causes, to free its people from Saddam (hey, wasn't he a good guy 10 years before?). This war was for economical (oil, war industry) and political (presence in Middle East) reasons, using as an excuse the emotions of the USA population after the infamous terrorist attacks. While people were still mourning their deads, while the population (and the world) was still shocked with such actions, economic forces began taking advantage of this. War is a very lucrative business to some.

Regards,
Adelaide

Yeah, war is so lucrative, tell that to the * recession we're in. If the war was for oil then why am I paying an all time high for my gas. If it was for oil as then why haven't we taken Iraq's oil for ourselves, ahhh, maybe it's because Adelaide doesn't have a clue what she's talking about

harry · « **Reply #47 on:** March 18, 2008, 23:48 »

Quote from: nruboc on March 18, 2008, 23:09

You still haven't made your argument for anti-interventionism to the women of Darfur... c'mon we know you can do it..... Yeah, as long as it's not YOUR children, wife getting raped and murdered your ok with it.

One thing that pro-war americans seem to be unable to understand- Saddam IS NOT the same as hitler, and Iraq IS NOT the same as darfur. You cant justify one with the other. Its not black vs white, good vs evil, goodies vs badies, freedom vs dictatorship and communism. The world isnt the same as it is on tv. Sometimes one should intervene, sometimes one shouldnt. This is why youre in the mess youre in- you thought that Iraq would be like Japan or Germany! You know, America supports half the world's dictators and brutal regimes- so simplifying things like this is bound to cause problems.
As for guantanemo- the great thing about america is the rule of law and human rights. If youre not prepared to make sacrifices for them, the world has a right to see you as being hypocritical. "keyboard warrior" my ass- if you arent prepared to fight for, die for, and live by your own rules, all the macho crap goes out of the window. Give the terrorists free and serious trials according to the law, without resorting to saddam-style torture. If that makes things harder and some people slip through the net, well tough. People have to die for western ideals, just as they died in the past battles which brought us our freedoms. It's a shame that this generation doesnt live up to the last one, or youd be braver and more prepared to take the risk of living up to your own standards.

You know, all that macho crap is such a joke anyway. By far most americans supported this war. Most of them voted for bush after he started it. Now, most agree that... Whoops! It was a mistake. But most worryingly, most also want the troops to come home as soon as possible. How selfish and cowardly! You accidentally (and the statistics show Americans agree it was an accident) start a war which kills thousands of people and devastates a great culture. Then you arent even prepared to pay for it with your own soldiers, and instead want to run away and forget about it. What a shame this isnt the great WW2 generation that only fought wars that it needed to, and was prepared to sacrifice it's young for it's ideals. The macho retoric was similar. What a shame America doesnt have the stomach to live up to it!

anonymous · « **Reply #48 on:** March 19, 2008, 00:14 »

wow dude...wonder what country you live in....you seem very tweaked. Love this country (USA), war was a mistake, but you really tilt toward some hard words, I'm sure you live in the "perfect" country with a bliss govt....chill just a bit please....

thx Leaf for letting this roll...

How selfish and cowardly! You accidentally (and the statistics show Americans agree it was an accident) start a war which kills thousands of people and devastates a great culture. Then you arent even prepared to pay for it with your own soldiers, and instead want to run away and forget about it. What a shame this isnt the great WW2 generation that only fought wars that it needed to, and was prepared to sacrifice it's young for it's ideals. The macho retoric was similar. What a shame America doesnt have the stomach to live up to it!

FYI, none of that statement is true (regarding myself) in any measure...please do not speak for Americans, unless you are one...and don't assume you speak for ALL of us even if you are.

harry · « **Reply #49 on:** March 19, 2008, 00:36 »

Im not talking about "all americans"- Im talking about the ones that supported this war, ie "most americans", and Id add those who supported the war in any other country too.

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Author Topic: What do you think? (Read 67580 times)

jorgeinthewater

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nruboc

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Lizard

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