For all those who seriously believe the EU is actually trying to "help" Greece:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu

For all those who seriously believe the EU is actually trying to "help" Greece:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/greece-financial-elite-democracy-liassez-faire-neoliberalism?CMP=fb_gu

Right! This is a great analysis!

So, the alternative to a free market economy is a state controlled economy.
Because a state controlled economy is democratic and good for the people!
Right!

This is why life in a 100% state controlled East Germany was much better than in the West Germany controlled by their greedy capitalists brothers.
And this is why North Koreans, in a 100% state controlled economy, are so happy compared with their South Koreans brothers, ruled by Samsung and other ruthless corporations.
And this is why Eastern Europeans were so happily queuing for hours for a rationed loaf of bread, oil, sugar, etc, in their democratic 100% state controlled economies

We can see more and more the signs of this happiness in the country of Syriza.

The question remains - why should countries that earn much less than Greece force their tax payers to send money to Greece, especially if greece is not doing what is necessary to improve their economy.

You are missing the point. The media is usually simplifying the situation with phrases like "sending money to Greece to help them" and this statement is usually accompanied by the phrase like "while they do not want to do reforms or save".
This is a misconception, mal information and a insult to the greek people.

To make it short, let me quote Phillip Inman from "The Guardian":

�The bailouts have been for the European financial sector, while passing the debt from being owed to the private sector to the public sector.�


...and

Less than 10% of the bailout money was left to be used by the government for reforming its economy and safeguarding weaker members of society.


Read the details here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

78% of the "bailout" money goes directly to financial Institutions  which hold old debt, piled it up with interests, forced Greece with the tool of the "Troika" to compensate those debts with their assets - which was basically and expropriation. They stripped all values from the country, left it with nothing, but continue to pile up debt for interests and then, due to their "system relevant status", threaten the EU community to pay for that debt.

Yes, you are right. Greece made debt in the beginning. Like any other country does in the EU. However, this debt is not extraordinarily high - look at the per capita column:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

The average Greek has less Debt than the average German counted by per Capita.


It just got bled out with the same mechanisms like south america by the north before.
(Interesting read in context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Veins_of_Latin_America)

In other words:
Imagine you are a carpenter. You have to go into debt - for whatever reason which might be stupid or not. The holder of the debt increases interests and gives you pressure. You go to your friends to ask for money. This money goes directly to the holder of the debt. But the interest is too high. The holder of the debt asks you that you have to give him all his tools (Troika). You have no choice. So you earn less. You have to ask for more to your friends. It is not enough since you earn less and now have to borrow more! The holder asks you to handle over your house....in the end, whatever you do is to the benefit of the financial institution. Not to you. If you refuse to hand over your house or your tools - and you know that this will ruin you - your are not "willing to do the neccesarry" and get called lazy and cheating by all your friends.


Greece lost healthcare, pensions, education,....all for that. 

Yes, you are right. Greece will never be a economic power like e.g. Germany. They have another lifestyle. Things do not work out there like in a society which is focussed on a rational lifestyle. But who are we to judge? Does this give us the right to abuse debt as power? Does it give us the right to dictate their economy (through the Euro) and tell them how to live or otherwise drive them into bankruptcy? They had been alright before. I have grown up in a place like this (not greece) and know the mentality . If you would make me chose between the UK and a country like Greece I do not know which country provides more quality of life.

Furthermore: A crash and grexit is not nearly as bad as growing up a entire generation in hopelessness and make them leave the country. People get used to ahve no Job and no possibility. They won`t get out with 30. Germany is "more or less" alright right now, I recently visited it but most of the other EU countries are in a critical development.

 

The Eu and especially the euro made a huge difference to our business, we both exported and imported much more easily. The whole euro zone became our market and we started working with many new suppliers from other countries that we didn�t consider before, because we didn�t want to always be dependent on the various exchange rates.

I don�t see any other country other than Greece interested in leaving the euro or attacking all of Europe so aggressively.



A country cannot run on other people�s money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they don�t do it, nobody else will.

The EU's Dirty Secret: Germany Is The Biggest Welfare Recipient There Is


The standard way of thinking about the eurozone is this: Germany is strong, France is a bit less strong, and everyone else mooches off their strength.

Certainly that's how it's appeared lately, post-crisis, but that's thinking way too small.

Floyd Norris at NYT sheds some light on what's actually been the case, going back to the creation of the Euro: Germany is the biggest beneficiary around, and everyone else has been losers.

Basically, because periphery countries like Portugal and Greece and Spain are not able to devalue their currencies to a point where they have competitive labor forces, Germany is the huge winner.

Its trade balance has surged from being in a small deficit pre-Euro to a huge surplus post euro.




Sans euro, Germany's neighbors would be far more competitive than they are now. Also, if we went back to each country having their own currencies, the Deutsche Mark would surge beyond where the euro is now, making Germany even less competitive as BMWs became less affordable for everyone else.

The workers of Spain, Italy, France and everyone else are crippled to benefit the Germans, and its insistence on a strong Euro. Also it should be noted that pre-crisis, the huge consumption booms in countries like Greece were another subsidy to the Germans.

It's ironic, then, that German politicians are giving Merkel such a hard time about bailing out her peers. It seems like a classic case of overvaluing the seen -- direct transfers to other countries -- over the unseen, the pernicious effects of currency system that doesn't work.



http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-benefits-from-the-eurozone-2011-4

The EU's Dirty Secret: Germany Is The Biggest Welfare Recipient There Is


The standard way of thinking about the eurozone is this: Germany is strong, France is a bit less strong, and everyone else mooches off their strength.

Certainly that's how it's appeared lately, post-crisis, but that's thinking way too small.

Floyd Norris at NYT sheds some light on what's actually been the case, going back to the creation of the Euro: Germany is the biggest beneficiary around, and everyone else has been losers.

Basically, because periphery countries like Portugal and Greece and Spain are not able to devalue their currencies to a point where they have competitive labor forces, Germany is the huge winner.

Its trade balance has surged from being in a small deficit pre-Euro to a huge surplus post euro.




Sans euro, Germany's neighbors would be far more competitive than they are now. Also, if we went back to each country having their own currencies, the Deutsche Mark would surge beyond where the euro is now, making Germany even less competitive as BMWs became less affordable for everyone else.

The workers of Spain, Italy, France and everyone else are crippled to benefit the Germans, and its insistence on a strong Euro. Also it should be noted that pre-crisis, the huge consumption booms in countries like Greece were another subsidy to the Germans.

It's ironic, then, that German politicians are giving Merkel such a hard time about bailing out her peers. It seems like a classic case of overvaluing the seen -- direct transfers to other countries -- over the unseen, the pernicious effects of currency system that doesn't work.

It's certainly true that Germany has benefitted hugely from being in the Eurozone ... but that is their reward for their industries being highly competitive and their citizens for being thrifty.

It seems that in Germany the workforce has largely accepted minimal increases in pay for over a decade __  in total contrast to the French for example where prices have increases hugely since the Euro was introduced. If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.

Before the crash the frugal nature of the German people was considered to be a brake on their own economy. They were producing great cars, furniture, white goods, etc but too many Germans preferred to keep their money in the bank rather than spend it. Their behaviour is quite different to citizens of the UK for example, many of whom will keep spending on stuff until their credit is maxed-out.

Yes, Germany is now doing very well from being in the Eurozone but it is only because of their own hard work and self-discipline. It is something that less efficient countries should admire and seek to emulate rather than being envious and critical.

Yes, Germany is now doing very well from being in the Eurozone but it is only because of their own hard work and self-discipline. It is something that less efficient countries should admire and seek to emulate rather than being envious and critical.

How can you say something like this?! How can you say this ignoring the different recent histories of each country? I'm not even talking about cultural differences. Just simple historical and social data.

Germany started the 20th century as a heavily industrialized country, with a high level of education compared to others.

Despite provoking two world wars and destroying Europe, shifting the world power to USA, not only got two bailouts for the war compensations but even got huge economic aid through the Marshal plan. Besides, the lack of army after WWII allowed it to invest that money into the economy.

If you're interested, take a look at the story of Portugal in the 20th century and social indicators and tell me how could we recover from the problems we had, like a 48 years of isolationist, medievalist, fascist dictatorship, with a period of 13 years of a colonial war fought in three different fronts in Africa deadlier to Portugal than the Vietnam to US (in scale). But if you want, take a look at the period between 1900 and 1926 too.

When we got into the EEC in 1986 we had just got out of a revolution, and were 70 years at least behind Germany. The population didn't had education and the illiteracy was huge. Do you think that we would just start building Mercedes or jet planes in a couple of years? It takes at least a couple generations to minimize the difference.

I'm not saying that Germany and the Germans do not have merit, and that we don't have anything to learn from them. Far from it.

But ignoring the history from the other countries and thinking that everyone is able to recover from a totally different historic, social and economic situation in a few years just by snapping the fingers is naive at best.

That is why this whole EU has gotten to where it is today. Some people think it's just a question of throwing money and all is solved. And when things go bad it can only be because others are lazy...

My sister-in-law worked in the factory of Leica in Portugal and will possibly again. I'm guessing you heard that name before, right? After 40 years in Portugal Leica built a new factory just a couple of years ago investing millions on it despite the fact that they could have taken it to cheaper places. Why haven't they? Because the portuguese workers are excellent. In fact they are the ones who repair the defective products Germans build in Germany!

So why aren't we replicating that efficiency and success in other areas? The top management being German obviously helps, but the real question lies on what I said earlier, the disadvantage we had from the start in historical and social terms that impaired Portugal to compete on the high-value and technological advanced products.

And when the EU opened the gates of Europe to China and others it was even worse. The few industry we were left with could not compete in price with them and closed, despite some factories (including German ones) got back to Portugal because the Chinese could not match the quality and competence of the Portuguese.

If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.

actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.

Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal

He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK.  Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one.  I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP.  He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.

Habemus papam!
http://www.amna.gr/english/articleview.php?id=10546


Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 09, 2015, 17:10

Quote from: gostwyck on July 09, 2015, 15:36

If you visit both countries you'll probably be quite shocked to discover how cheap it is in Germany and also how expensive it can be in France.

actually it's even more shocking because some food items in germany are cheaper than anywhere else in europe ! especially in discount supermarkets like ALDI o LIDL with just 30-40 euro you can fill an entire trolley with food and drinks and it's not necessarily junk food.

In Portugal, with 30/40� you just fill a bag of basic groceries even on LIDL and similar discount supermarkets. To fill a trolley, expect to spend at least 150� of basic white brand products. And we pay this with the small salaries we have.

... yes - but you Portuguese and Greeks are lazy, and Germans are working a lot, these racist theories we read in these pages many times, therefore the Latin Europe should be separated from the Anglo Saxon Europe - immediately...

... yes - but you Portuguese and Greeks are lazy, and Germans are working a lot, these racist theories we read in these pages many times, therefore the Latin Europe should be separated from the Anglo Saxon Europe - immediately...

Average annual hours actually worked
Portugal: 1.852
Germany: 1.363

Source: https://data.oecd.org/emp/hours-worked.htm

Level of GDP per capita and productivity
Portugal: $35 usd
Germany: $62 usd

Source: http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=PDB_LV

Looking at these stats, most people will immediately say: Look! Those Portuguese workers are nothing but a bunch of lazy, ineffective and incompetent workers!

And that is what the central Europe politicians and media want people to think, because that's the immediate reading from those numbers. A Portuguese worker is producing almost half of the wealth a German one does, while working more hours!

What the politicians and media rarely say is that the Productivity level is not linked to the efficiency and commitment of the worker, BUT to the wealth he produces based on the product he works on.

Saying that, if you got a German working 8 hours on a high-end product like a Mercedes, he will always be more "productive" than a Portuguese seamstress sewing t-shirts even if she worked 24 hours a day with the same commitment and efficiency of the German!

In Portugal, these "Productivity" numbers have been used for years now to bash the Portuguese and lead us into an almost new type of slavery, by destroying our moral and protest ability and justifying the increase of the numbers of hours and all attacks on workers rights.

Even more "shocking": food in Germany is more expensive than in USA. I wonder why? Hmmm....

because it's like comparing apples and oranges.

taxation is lower in the USA, the Unions have been almost killed in the 80s with Reaganomics, there's no Minimum Wage and even if there was they would find a way to recoup the costs in other ways, millions of unskilled workers who are paid a pittance while keeping wages below the poverty line, and since it's America they will also blamed and shamed for being enslaved in a low paying job .. in america it's never society being at fault, the blame is always on those at the endpoint of the whole system, there's a good reason they abolished slavery just to replace it with even cheaper salaries and ponzi schemes.

moreover, american workers have barely 2 weeks of paid holiday, most don't have even a basic health insurance, and you'll need to get at least a 50K $ loan to enroll in a decent university.

said that, yes food is cheaper and property is cheaper and oil/gas are also a lot cheaper, but at what price ?
there's always a price to pay, security and crime for instance, and how it can be healthy for a society when a 50K/year salary is barely enough to belong to the lower middle class ?

sure you'll save on food but the next day you'll get a 5000$ bill from your dentist or your doctor, all things that would cost 10x times less anywhere else including germany and while you're busy working your as-s off your wife could be having an affair with someone else and hit you with divorce and lifetime alimony (unheard of in europe, thanks god) ...