Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 95487 times)

KnowYourOnions · « **on:** June 27, 2015, 04:41 »

Greece debt crisis: Tsipras announces bailout referendum

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839

heywoody · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2015, 07:16 »

I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they can’t afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2015, 07:29 »

It's a terrible situation and as I'm just about to retire there I don't relish any of the possible outcomes. If Greeks "reject austerity" they will get a big dose of additional austerity from dropping out of the euro-zone and maybe eventually the EU itself, if they bow to the creditors then there is likely to be a decade more of economic contraction.
Joining the euro is the worst thing that has happened to Greece for a long time, maybe even since the end of the civil war.

panicAttack · « **Reply #3 on:** June 27, 2015, 07:37 »

Quote from: heywoody on June 27, 2015, 07:16

I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they can’t afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.

I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

and it was even worst few years ago (even Greece was already in crisis, wages were on pair with Germany, France or UK)

Governments are chosen by the people, and those people wanted to live luxurious much above their standards, they choose politicians who are promising them higher wages or not lowering wages... and then, when it comes to paying dept, they suddenly became poor.

Justanotherphotographer · « **Reply #4 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:12 »

There are many people going hungry in Greece. Having a high average wage or pension doesn't do you much good if you don't have a job, or haven't actually received that paycheck or pension for months or even years. I know people who have lost everything over there.

I would also posit that the poorest countries in the EU are net beneficiaries in the EU's account books, so I am not convinced it is costing their tax payers anything. It would mostly be from Germany, and frankly it's their turn to pay up, given all the cash they received to aid rebuilding after the second world war from countries who's own populations were still on rations (in fact fro longer than the German people).

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #5 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:16 »

Quote from: panicAttack on June 27, 2015, 07:37

Quote from: heywoody on June 27, 2015, 07:16
I agree. People in Greece are going hungry and dying because they can’t afford medical treatment in order to make rich people even richer. Whatever the legalities, this is morally reprehensible and the EU governments, especially my own, should hang their heads in shame.
The referendum is a way of standing up to bullies and very courageous in the circumstances.

I am all for referendum, but people of Greece are not going hungry or dying. People in some African countries are, but not in Greece. They have higher pension and wages then people in many others countries in EU, and once they had income even above Germany. It's sad and unfairly that Croatian, Slovenian, Slovakian, Hungarian, Romanian, Polish or Bulgarian people (tax payers) sending financial help when you check this map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

and it was even worst few years ago (even Greece was already in crisis, wages were on pair with Germany, France or UK)

Governments are chosen by the people, and those people wanted to live luxurious much above their standards, they choose politicians who are promising them higher wages or not lowering wages... and then, when it comes to paying dept, they suddenly became poor.

Wage levels don't necessarily reflect poverty. The poverty of trying to live in a flat in Athens, with hire-purchase debts owing on your car, furniture and white goods after losing your job is quite different from the poverty of being in a village, having a donkey, a stream with a stone for the washing, and a vegetable plot with onions, eggplants and tomatoes.

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:25 »

I could not disagree more and don't feel sorry for Greece. The government cooked the books and practically everyone dodges taxes. They all got themselves in this hole. They've been bailed out with our tax money 89 billion. It has to come at a cost. They can leave if they want . I doubt it will make things better for them

heywoody · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:31 »

Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.

cobalt · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:35 »

It is a fact that many people on governement jobs and those that can retire in their mid fifties are getting incomes and pensions that are much higher than here in Germany and certainly much, much higher than many european countries.

Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasn´t gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.

The Greek governement refuses to cut their enormous military spending. Seriously, what are they expecting - world war three? A turkish invasion?? They could easily spend that money on their own citizens.

The number of people in Greece who work for black money and never pay their taxes is just mind booggling. I have family and friends in Greece and for years I have been in arguments why they don´t show any solidarity with their own country and fully pay their taxes. They genuinly think it is "clever" to make other people, especially other Europeans pay for them. I´ve even met people who said right into my face that "The Germans like to work until they are seventy, the Greeks are masters of enjoying life, so the Germans should pay", They considered it the natural order of things, again pointing to the amazingly superior and clever greek way of life. And I have been running into this attitude for many years, long before Greece even joined the euro.

The whole culture has to change, people have to show solidarity with their own country. And to expect much smaller and much poorer EU countries to pay for their lifestyle is just shameless.

Of course there are also good and honest and hard working people in Greece, but if you look at the amount of tax evasion, corruption and bribery it is clear that it is not just the superrich that are doing the damage, a huge part of the population is playing the "clever game" too.

The country has huge potential and greeks are very flexible business people. But they need to look at themselves first and take responsibility instead of playing the blame game and always looking for outsiders.

So many countries in Europe are poor, but you don´t see them staging all kinds of hysterical public drama. They genuinly try to solve their own problems and seek strength from inside their own community.

My tax money shoud go to countries that really are using it to improve themselves. I´d rather we spend more on them.

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:38 »

Quote from: heywoody on June 27, 2015, 08:31

Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.

so just keep pumping money into a bottomless pit and let Greece run amok with our money? If Greece defaults no one gets rich. A coroner makes money on someone's death. Its just business.

Semmick Photo · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:42 »

Excellent post Jasmine

KnowYourOnions · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2015, 08:59 »

Quote from: cobalt on June 27, 2015, 08:35

Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasn´t gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.

Not really refused!

According to Swiss legislation, banks are NOT obligated to provide information on depositors, unless they have been prosecuted for money laundering. This makes it prohibitive for the Greek authorities to substantiate cases of suspected tax evasion.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/

ATHENS, April 28 (Xinhua) -- Greece's left-wing government promoted a deal with Switzerland in the framework of a wider campaign to nab tax evaders during talks with Swiss officials here on Tuesday.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:05 »

Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 27, 2015, 08:38

Quote from: heywoody on June 27, 2015, 08:31
Paul is absolutely correct. The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though. The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.
so just keep pumping money into a bottomless pit and let Greece run amok with our money? If Greece defaults no one gets rich. A coroner makes money on someone's death. Its just business.

Hey, I never said that. What I said was there there are different kinds of poverty, one is the sort of stable daily grind of living a tough life - which you just get on with - the other comes from thinking you've climbed the ladder to prosperity and suddenly having the ladder kicked out from under you.

Nobody knows what the best solution is to Greece. Maybe it's the long, slow grind of submitting to austerity inside a currency that you never should have been in, maybe it's better to get out of the currency and try to make do without anything from abroad. The tragedy is what happens to ordinary people who thought they had been elevated from the subsistence life and suddenly find that events beyond their control make life worse than they could imagine. People really are committing suicide because they have lost hope. It's not a financial game, it's real life. The educated kids who can get away are fleeing to the north to make a living, taking their skills with them (only four other people were liviing on my lane - two ancient ladies and two guys in their 30s, one of them was overjoyed because he got a job in Norway, so there are just three now, living in six old houses). One can only wonder how a "lazy Greek" would be able to keep up with the workload for an employee in Norway!!

Anyway, the argument isn't about "throwing more money" at Greece, it's about how to make the Greek economy grow so it can repay its debts. It was 120% of GDP in hock at the start of this, and after the pre-Syriza sucesses of austerity it ended up 180% of GDP in hock. How? Simply because the debt shrank very marginally while the economy collapsed at about the same rate and on the same scale as America in the Great Depression. Even the IMF admits that the whole programme it was behind was disastrously wrong - but it wants more of the same because it can't think of any alternative.

In the absence of a plan for growth, squeezing more money out of Greece will just lead to further economic contraction and make the debt more unpayable. Until, eventually, the inevitable default happens.

It's also worth noting that the Greek primary surplus last year, if adjusted for cyclical factors, was not the 1% or 0% headline figure, but 5 or 6%, according to an OECD report last week, making Greece already by far the most profitable economy in the EU on that measure. I guess the new proposals would push the adjusted surplus up around 10%, but at a huge cost in poverty.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:10 »

It's also worth remembering that it's been suggested for a very long time that the introduction of the euro was designed to create just such a crisis as this, because by doing so it would lead to the next step on European integration, fiscal (tax) union and the creation of a federal state.
If that's true, then Greece has been sacrificed for the political ideal of a European superstate. Unfortunately, the other countries have decided to pursue national interests rather than moving forward to avoid what is happening now, so the sacrificial lamb has to go rather than enjoying a Biblical reprieve.

cobalt · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:14 »

Quote from: KnowYourOnions on June 27, 2015, 08:59

Quote from: cobalt on June 27, 2015, 08:35

Greece is still not taxing their rich people, it is legal for the ship billionaires to not pay any taxes. Greece hasn´t gone after anyone on the list of people hiding money in Switzerland and although Switzerland has offered for years to send Greece money from their citizens through anonymous 35% taxes, they way they do for other Europeans, Greece has refused to take those 10-15 Billion euros a year.

Not really refused!

According to Swiss legislation, banks are NOT obligated to provide information on depositors, unless they have been prosecuted for money laundering. This makes it prohibitive for the Greek authorities to substantiate cases of suspected tax evasion.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/03/27/swiss-banks-will-not-release-information-on-suspected-greek-tax-cheaters/

ATHENS, April 28 (Xinhua) -- Greece's left-wing government promoted a deal with Switzerland in the framework of a wider campaign to nab tax evaders during talks with Swiss officials here on Tuesday.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-04/29/c_134197035.htm

This has nothing to do with handing out names and adresses. Switzerland provides billions of tax dollars to many european countries as a lump sum without naming any names.

This way the money for that year is actually correctly taxed, if the account holder does want to declare his hidden money some day, than for all these years are considered the taxes to be paid.

They did it for Germany some time in 2004 I think, for other countries even earlier I think. It was a comprise reached to allow the Swiss banks to stick to their strict privacy laws but for the other European countries to get their taxes.

At the same time many european countries also offered tax amnesties, to allow people to declare their money without going to jail. They still have to pay fines etc...at least here in Germany. The italians did it with lump sum of the total I think. They also do it on a regular basis to keep bringing the money back into Italy.

But nevertheless, this system has been in place for many years, Uk and Germany pay between 22-35% anonymous tax, and Switzerland offered this anonymous tax money several times to greece, but they always refused or wanted huge lump sums in advance etc....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.

ferdinand · « **Reply #15 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:15 »

...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #16 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:16 »

Greece lived for very long a good life on borrowed money and now they are asked to pay it back.
The perfect examples are those expensive Olympic Games: borrowed money used to fuel a national ego, instead of being used to grow the economy.
Even now they belive themselves entitled to a living standard above the rest of eastern europe and they still expect others to pay for it. Unsustainable.
No surprise to see a high poverty % when measured against a high poverty threshold.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/0/04/At-risk-of-poverty_rate_and_threshold%2C_2012_%281%29_YB14_II.png

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cobalt · « **Reply #17 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:22 »

Quote from: ferdinand on June 27, 2015, 09:15

...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...

I doubt it. Europe has many,many countries and the success and improvements in many poor countries is amazing. The eurpean market and the euro make trading inside europe so much easier. I hated all those different currencies, it made our work so difficult. With the euro we could easily and buy and sell across the whole region.

The euro won´t go away, europe won´t fall apart.

Greece might leave and it is up to them if they want back in.

A hero is someone who achieves results. Not someone who loves public attention and then will just disappear when things get difficult.

cobalt · « **Reply #18 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:31 »

Quote from: panicAttack on June 27, 2015, 07:37

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.

So many other countries in Europe are really poor and they don´t have a booming tourist industry that allows many people without special skills to make some money by renting out rooms, working in many tourism related jobs etc...Tourism business offers many job opportunities. And these jobs can´t be taken away by robots.

Other countries have a much more difficult time to establish businesses and growth.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #19 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:33 »

Quote from: cobalt on June 27, 2015, 09:14

....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.

But you need to remember who was running the place for almost all those year - it was the very people the Troika wish were running it now. The bunch who "lost" the Lagarde List of Greeks with big Swiss accounts, and then prosecuted and persecuted a journalist for daring to publish it after it was leaked to him. Syriza will probably turn out no better - I'm no fan of the hard left - but it's unfair to throw the sins of their opponents in their faces.

ferdinand · « **Reply #20 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:37 »

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on June 27, 2015, 09:33

Quote from: cobalt on June 27, 2015, 09:14
....They could have established this as an easy and reliable income stream many years ago.
But you need to remember who was running the place for almost all those year - it was the very people the Troika wish were running it now. The bunch who "lost" the Lagarde List of Greeks with big Swiss accounts, and then prosecuted and persecuted a journalist for daring to publish it after it was leaked to him. Syriza will probably turn out no better - I'm no fan of the hard left - but it's unfair to throw the sins of their opponents in their faces.

Syriza is still not hard left - but they starting to be... these days ...

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #21 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:45 »

Quote from: cobalt on June 27, 2015, 09:31

Quote from: panicAttack on June 27, 2015, 07:37

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.

So many other countries in Europe are really poor

What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?

Zero Talent · « **Reply #22 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:48 »

Quote from: ferdinand on June 27, 2015, 09:15

...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...

He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.

You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.

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ferdinand · « **Reply #23 on:** June 27, 2015, 09:58 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 27, 2015, 09:48

Quote from: ferdinand on June 27, 2015, 09:15
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.

You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker players - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...

Zero Talent · « **Reply #24 on:** June 27, 2015, 10:06 »

Quote from: ferdinand on June 27, 2015, 09:58

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 27, 2015, 09:48
Quote from: ferdinand on June 27, 2015, 09:15
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.

You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker player - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...

I said that your guy is a gambler who cowardly hides behind a referendum.

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Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 95487 times)

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