Author Topic: Basic Economics - Supply & Demand (Read 6907 times)

JET LI · « **on:** April 24, 2018, 08:53 »

According to this book - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Business/Oversubscribed-Audiobook/B013KCG5DA?ref=a_typ_c1_lProduct_0_1&pf_rd_p=276381e6-3040-42a3-b411-51a3a26c7603&pf_rd_r=B6001W3FP9H6V4YFDXRR&

supply and demand is the key to making money. We all know the stock photography business is saturated by photographers, artists, etc. Driving prices down. so whats the alternative?

Well worth a listen to this book.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:18 »

No crap sherlock ;-). I think it was John Locke who first twigged this in 1691

JET LI · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:28 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:18

No crap sherlock ;-). I think it was John Locke who first twigged this in 1691

ha ha thanks for the sarcasm much appreciated. However, some of us (me included) may keep hoping things will get better. This book is a wake up call for people who don't want to face reality....

its not new info, but theres a lot to be learned from this book

Pauws99 · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:35 »

Seriously though if you haven't been aware of the continual discussion on here about supply and demand you really have been asleep.

BalkanskiMacak · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:42 »

Regarding my results, things are going pretty well: almost doubled my income since last year on Q1...

Seeing microstock as an homogeneous supply is a mistake, as there are plenty of markets within the sector.

As I was saying before, yes, there are a lot of pictures, but often badly managed, duplicates, bad shots, etc.

Identify the niches that will be profitable for you, and then you do everything to fill it as much as you can, then you find ways to reduce costs, and you may develop it.

Furthermore, I would add that the supply is not that serious. On another topic here, there was an interesting info that can be used as an example: there were (last year) less than 18000 accounts on SS with more than 1000 files for sale. In a nutshell, it means that not that many people are actually doing microstock on a medium and high scale level. If we remove some cheap vectors and illustration producers (that can't produce a decent work on large scale), yes, it means there is still some space.

To summarize, saying that there are no opportunities on microstock because there are a lot of suppliers would be the same as saying that there are no opportunities on the textile selling market on the internet (or any other E-Commerce activity) because the competition is enormous... it is simply not true

niktol · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:47 »

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 08:53

According to this book - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Business/Oversubscribed-Audiobook/B013KCG5DA?ref=a_typ_c1_lProduct_0_1&pf_rd_p=276381e6-3040-42a3-b411-51a3a26c7603&pf_rd_r=B6001W3FP9H6V4YFDXRR&

supply and demand is the key to making money. We all know the stock photography business is saturated by photographers, artists, etc. Driving prices down. so whats the alternative?

Well worth a listen to this book.

That's true for pretty much any profession. Whenever there is a new profession which is hired like crazy, just wait for 5 minutes.

But yeah, that discovery came a few hundred years late. Don't they teach that in secondary school?

JET LI · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:52 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:35

Seriously though if you haven't been aware of the continual discussion on here about supply and demand you really have been asleep.

Your right - i have been asleep. Well ive been away from stock for a few years as i started up my own offline business several years ago. I was making nice earnings with my stock images....but what i have noticed is - if you stop uploading your earnings gradually dwindle down to nothing.

I was wanting to get back into it but the competition is incredible compared to a few years back.

JET LI · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:56 »

But yeah, that discovery came a few hundred years late. Don't they teach that in secondary school?
[/quote]

yeah i think they do teach that in secondary school. But its easy to forget and you end up living in cloud cuckoo land

Pauws99 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2018, 09:59 »

Quote from: niktol on April 24, 2018, 09:47

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 08:53
According to this book - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Business/Oversubscribed-Audiobook/B013KCG5DA?ref=a_typ_c1_lProduct_0_1&pf_rd_p=276381e6-3040-42a3-b411-51a3a26c7603&pf_rd_r=B6001W3FP9H6V4YFDXRR&

supply and demand is the key to making money. We all know the stock photography business is saturated by photographers, artists, etc. Driving prices down. so whats the alternative?

Well worth a listen to this book.

That's true for pretty much any profession. Whenever there is a new profession which is hired like crazy, just wait for 5 minutes.

But yeah, that discovery came a few hundred years late. Don't they teach that in secondary school?

Yep I reckon every new business sees an initial explosion with seemingly insatiable demand and big profits then everyone piling in to make their fortune then a shakedown with a few businesses who really know what they are doing surviving...what puzzles me are the number of tiny agencies limping along...and more so the start ups who think there is still money to be made from a simple "me too" agency.

JET LI · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2018, 10:17 »

[/quote] what puzzles me are the number of tiny agencies limping along...and more so the start ups who think there is still money to be made from a simple "me too" agency.
[/quote]

Anyone can be a busy fool. Heck, i can build and design my own stock photography website and try to compete on price with the big boys.....but i wont. Its stupid

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2018, 10:53 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:59

Yep I reckon every new business sees an initial explosion with seemingly insatiable demand and big profits then everyone piling in to make their fortune then a shakedown with a few businesses who really know what they are doing surviving...what puzzles me are the number of tiny agencies limping along...and more so the start ups who think there is still money to be made from a simple "me too" agency.

Also, and maybe some here are too young, when computers started, there were all kinds of companies and operating systems, some were smaller, some had big company names and some where smaller and struggling. Now what do we have? Basically three, Microsoft, Apple and Ubuntu. Yes there are some specialized and niche OS projects but for the most part, two and one open source. Phones are the same.

Game companies for computers, all over, individuals, small, large and the sharks either consumed the little ones, bought them or drove them out of business. Anyone remember Lotus 1-2-3? Dbase, Wordstar, Wang word processors. We had to pay for web browsers until Firefox (actually Netscape and Mozilla where open source) But Internet Explorer gained a foothold because it was bundled with Windows 98.

Microstock is the same. Rapid growth to start, all kinds of competition from small to large. Like it or not, like all other technology there's a flash of development, innovation and then a process of weeding out. Only the strong survive. Genius is Adobe offering their own connected stock site, keep watching.

I don't know how so many of the smaller agencies are hanging on and staying in business. Maybe it's the outstanding profit margin because they pay us almost nothing!

Oh and the OP, yes is there an echo in here? I've been saying the same things since the start and so have many others. It's simple supply and demand economic for people working in Microstock or Stock. We went from having useful and creative images, with better sales to the level now of providing a common commodity, in many cases. There are still degrees of quality, but a photo of an Apple is a photo of an Apple and if the buyer doesn't like mine they have 100,000 other choices.

I don't think the big two agencies are doing anything to help us, and the change to lower standards, go for numbers has just made the market worse for those of us who care and produce the quality work. We're like a local fine import grocery store vs Walmart or some big chain food store, and next door is a dollar store. Many different levels of quality and pricing to match. The corner store and neighborhood grocery stores are mostly history.

Only 10 agencies make the list on the right now and that number could drop another one or two if they don't make meaningful income for us? I've already left, but some people are still struggling to make what they can from all the outlets. You can only support and work for nothing to keep the bottom feeders and dying agencies in business. Eventually they are just sapping your production, competing with your own income, and a waste of time.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2018, 13:03 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:18

No crap sherlock ;-). I think it was John Locke who first twigged this in 1691

Yeah, maybe more from a philosophical point of view.
Adam Smith and "The Wealth of Nations", published in 1776, is considered the father of classical economics with his "Invisible Hand" and the principles behind the free market economy. But that's a difficult book, it's hard to follow, even if you get the audio version.

I would recommend to start first with this audiobook and fill some gaps:

A Little History of Economics
https://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/A-Little-History-of-Economics-Audiobook/B06WVW8XCP

JET LI · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2018, 13:33 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 24, 2018, 13:03

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:18
No crap sherlock ;-). I think it was John Locke who first twigged this in 1691

Yeah, maybe more from a philosophical point of view.
Adam Smith and "The Wealth of Nations", published in 1776, is considered the father of classical economics with his "Invisible Hand" and the principles begin the free market economy. But that's a difficult book, it's hard to follow, even if you get the audio version.

I would recommend to start first with this audiobook and fill some gaps:

A Little History of Economics
https://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/A-Little-History-of-Economics-Audiobook/B06WVW8XCP

Thanks;) i'll have a listen to this too. Its good to know.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2018, 13:55 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 24, 2018, 13:03

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 24, 2018, 09:18
No crap sherlock ;-). I think it was John Locke who first twigged this in 1691

Yeah, maybe more from a philosophical point of view.
Adam Smith and "The Wealth of Nations", published in 1776, is considered the father of classical economics with his "Invisible Hand" and the principles behind the free market economy. But that's a difficult book, it's hard to follow, even if you get the audio version.

I would recommend to start first with this audiobook and fill some gaps:

A Little History of Economics
https://www.audible.com/pd/Nonfiction/A-Little-History-of-Economics-Audiobook/B06WVW8XCP

Division of labour and free markets were his thing I believe? Takes me back.......to my days of study. I'm not quite so old I knew him personally ;-). Microstock is a business more than a "art" so I would say any fairly standard Business studies book or even an on-line course is a sound investment if its not an area you are overly familiar with.

flywing · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2018, 14:50 »

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 08:53

According to this book - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Business/Oversubscribed-Audiobook/B013KCG5DA?ref=a_typ_c1_lProduct_0_1&pf_rd_p=276381e6-3040-42a3-b411-51a3a26c7603&pf_rd_r=B6001W3FP9H6V4YFDXRR&

supply and demand is the key to making money. We all know the stock photography business is saturated by photographers, artists, etc. Driving prices down. so whats the alternative?

Well worth a listen to this book.

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.

JET LI · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2018, 15:17 »

[/quote]

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.
[/quote]

One things for sure - there laughing all the way to the bank! The only alternative is to cut out the middleman. Meaning everyone join forces, and take our images with us. Its the only way its ever going to change.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2018, 16:10 »

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 15:17

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.

One things for sure - there laughing all the way to the bank! The only alternative is to cut out the middleman. Meaning everyone join forces, and take our images with us. Its the only way its ever going to change.

1. Once you'll go through some of these books, you'll understand that "the middleman" is the oil that keeps the economy engine running smoothly.
The middleman allows the farmer to focus on what a farmer does best: farming. Efficient farmers don't waste their time with marketing, retailing and so on, when there are people better qualified to do these jobs.

Without the middleman institution, we will still be in the dark ages, in a stagnant, barter based economy.
Personally, I have no time for marketing nor hunting customers for my photos. Even if I'd find the time, I wouldn't be very good at it. This is why I have no fundamental problem in working with a middleman.

2. Prices go up and down regularly based on the supply and demand principle. Oil price is going up these days, even if we all got used to pretty low prices for the past two years, or so.
On the photography side, I don't think there is anyone expecting the over-supply to stop in the foreseeable future.

PaulieWalnuts · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2018, 23:03 »

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 08:53

According to this book - https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Business/Oversubscribed-Audiobook/B013KCG5DA?ref=a_typ_c1_lProduct_0_1&pf_rd_p=276381e6-3040-42a3-b411-51a3a26c7603&pf_rd_r=B6001W3FP9H6V4YFDXRR&

supply and demand is the key to making money. We all know the stock photography business is saturated by photographers, artists, etc. Driving prices down. so whats the alternative?

Well worth a listen to this book.

The alternative is either to create something that has little supply and high demand or create demand for something only you offer. Or find another line of work. Unfortunately the tried and true flipping burgers response is becoming irrelevant because this role is being replaced by self service kiosks and AI robots.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2018, 00:47 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 24, 2018, 16:10

Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 15:17

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.

One things for sure - there laughing all the way to the bank! The only alternative is to cut out the middleman. Meaning everyone join forces, and take our images with us. Its the only way its ever going to change.

1. Once you'll go through some of these books, you'll understand that "the middleman" is the oil that keeps the economy engine running smoothly.
The middleman allows the farmer to focus on what a farmer does best: farming. Efficient farmers don't waste their time with marketing, retailing and so on, when there are people better qualified to do these jobs.

Without the middleman institution, we will still be in the dark ages, in a stagnant, barter based economy.
Personally, I have no time for marketing nor hunting customers for my photos. Even if I'd find the time, I wouldn't be very good at it. This is why I have no fundamental problem in working with a middleman.

2. Prices go up and down regularly based on the supply and demand principle. Oil price is going up these days, even if we all got used to pretty low prices for the past two years, or so.
On the photography side, I don't think there is anyone expecting the over-supply to stop in the foreseeable future.

Middlemen do have their place...on the other hand Farmers in the UK who have the nous and talent have done very well by opening farm shops producing premium quality (or price really) goods and selling direct certainly better than those producing basic commodity type products like wheat. My local farmer now only pretty much grows for his busy shop. Similarly in photography those that are very successful are often very good at self publicity networking and similar. The internet makes it easier technically to sell direct but marketing is a skill hugely underestimated by many on here and one I don't particularly posses.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2018, 06:54 »

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 25, 2018, 00:47

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 24, 2018, 16:10
Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 15:17

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.

One things for sure - there laughing all the way to the bank! The only alternative is to cut out the middleman. Meaning everyone join forces, and take our images with us. Its the only way its ever going to change.

1. Once you'll go through some of these books, you'll understand that "the middleman" is the oil that keeps the economy engine running smoothly.
The middleman allows the farmer to focus on what a farmer does best: farming. Efficient farmers don't waste their time with marketing, retailing and so on, when there are people better qualified to do these jobs.

Without the middleman institution, we will still be in the dark ages, in a stagnant, barter based economy.
Personally, I have no time for marketing nor hunting customers for my photos. Even if I'd find the time, I wouldn't be very good at it. This is why I have no fundamental problem in working with a middleman.

2. Prices go up and down regularly based on the supply and demand principle. Oil price is going up these days, even if we all got used to pretty low prices for the past two years, or so.
On the photography side, I don't think there is anyone expecting the over-supply to stop in the foreseeable future.
Middlemen do have their place...on the other hand Farmers in the UK who have the nous and talent have done very well by opening farm shops producing premium quality (or price really) goods and selling direct certainly better than those producing basic commodity type products like wheat. My local farmer now only pretty much grows for his busy shop. Similarly in photography those that are very successful are often very good at self publicity networking and similar. The internet makes it easier technically to sell direct but marketing is a skill hugely underestimated by many on here and one I don't particularly posses.

Sure, but these farmer shops are rather a negligible exception, not the rule. If you need such products you get them from the local supermarket, through the "middleman", don't you? Very, very few city dwellers can afford the time and money to drive, regularly out of the city to those farms and buy their daily food directly from there. Modern life and progress are impossible without the middleman.

pancaketom · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2018, 13:34 »

If the middlemen are taking too high a percentage or not providing a good service then they are ripe for replacement. If for example Google opened up a marketplace and only took 25% I bet they would own the market very quickly. I don't see it happening, but I do feel that this market is ripe for a shakeup.

Pauws99 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2018, 18:31 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on April 25, 2018, 06:54

Quote from: Pauws99 on April 25, 2018, 00:47
Quote from: Zero Talent on April 24, 2018, 16:10
Quote from: JET LI on April 24, 2018, 15:17

But in microstock there is another layer as we're not selling our images directly to customers. We sell through microstock agencies. In this case, what do you think that drives prices down between too many images and too many agencies? I mean image's price, not our sales.

Anyway, one thing is quite for sure, once the price is down, it's virtually impossible to go back up since customers have gotten used to it.

One things for sure - there laughing all the way to the bank! The only alternative is to cut out the middleman. Meaning everyone join forces, and take our images with us. Its the only way its ever going to change.

1. Once you'll go through some of these books, you'll understand that "the middleman" is the oil that keeps the economy engine running smoothly.
The middleman allows the farmer to focus on what a farmer does best: farming. Efficient farmers don't waste their time with marketing, retailing and so on, when there are people better qualified to do these jobs.

Without the middleman institution, we will still be in the dark ages, in a stagnant, barter based economy.
Personally, I have no time for marketing nor hunting customers for my photos. Even if I'd find the time, I wouldn't be very good at it. This is why I have no fundamental problem in working with a middleman.

2. Prices go up and down regularly based on the supply and demand principle. Oil price is going up these days, even if we all got used to pretty low prices for the past two years, or so.
On the photography side, I don't think there is anyone expecting the over-supply to stop in the foreseeable future.
Middlemen do have their place...on the other hand Farmers in the UK who have the nous and talent have done very well by opening farm shops producing premium quality (or price really) goods and selling direct certainly better than those producing basic commodity type products like wheat. My local farmer now only pretty much grows for his busy shop. Similarly in photography those that are very successful are often very good at self publicity networking and similar. The internet makes it easier technically to sell direct but marketing is a skill hugely underestimated by many on here and one I don't particularly posses.
Sure, but these farmer shops are rather a negligible exception, not the rule. If you need such products you get them from the local supermarket, through the "middleman", don't you? Very, very few city dwellers can afford the time and money to drive, regularly out of the city to those farms and buy their daily food directly from there. Modern life and progress are impossible without the middleman.

I don't really disagree but for some suppliers there is a better option than using a middleman. I suppose negligible compared with the turnover in walmart but they are commonplace in the UK, by no means exceptional and growing fast and no you can't buy many farm's products from a supermarket as they only stock it at their shop "Artisan" products are a growing market and many believe you can't get that quality at a supermarket ....though in a way that's the point there are probably only a small number of photographers with the required level of photographic and business skills to go it alone.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #22 on:** April 26, 2018, 07:51 »

Quote from: pancaketom on April 25, 2018, 13:34

If the middlemen are taking too high a percentage or not providing a good service then they are ripe for replacement. If for example Google opened up a marketplace and only took 25% I bet they would own the market very quickly. I don't see it happening, but I do feel that this market is ripe for a shakeup.

There has been a theory floating around that Google is altering the search because they are getting into the Microstock market. The problem I see is this. If they are manipulating the search, where are the buyers getting their images? You can't have SS and IS and DT and the rest, all having lower downloads and lower earnings, without someone somewhere picking up that lost business. Who and where? Or have sales just evaporated?

Anyway, to answer, yes if Alphabet opened a new agency, or bought an existing one, and offered 25%, you can bet that those of us who are left, would go drop everything we have into their collection. Problem is, so would the image factories and there we would be with our thousands of images, competing against their 100s of thousands for the same market share.

What I mean is, sure I'd like 25%, I'd like 50% a bunch more.

How does mystery new agency, paying 50% and not racing to the lowest prices, asking for exclusive new images sound. Now I'm really interested! Might as well add since this is all imaginary and isn't going to happen, the agency reviews for quality and edits keywords and descriptions for truth and accuracy. Buyers would love that too?

Meanwhile back to the real world and the subject. Supply and demand. Does the world need another stock agency? Is there room for someone else to take another big slice out of our cheesecake and make the other slices smaller? So we get 25% of a higher volume and lose everyplace else where some people have worked to build their collections. You take money from one pocket and put it into your other pocket, you still have the same money. At this stage that's all I see for new agencies, unless they do something different. No gain for us, just a redistribution and dilution of meager returns.

Supply and demand, individuals produce, big image factories produce 100 times more, buyers still only need what they always needed. We're all going to make less unless we have something that the big factories don't make.

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Author Topic: Basic Economics - Supply & Demand (Read 6907 times)

JET LI

Pauws99

JET LI

Pauws99

BalkanskiMacak

niktol

JET LI

JET LI

Pauws99

JET LI

Uncle Pete

Zero Talent

JET LI

Pauws99

flywing

JET LI

Zero Talent

PaulieWalnuts

Pauws99

Zero Talent

pancaketom

Pauws99

Uncle Pete

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